Author Topic: Cambridge Park & Ride Changes November 2016  (Read 21604 times)

Offline grandad

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Cambridge Park & Ride Changes November 2016
« on: October 05, 2016, 08:45:41 AM »
see in current notices and proceedings that alteration to these services takes place in November,rumour is that these services will change to  a self contained services and will no longer run from one park and ride to another for instance Milton park and ride will run to city centre and terminate forming a service back to Milton,all other park and ride services will be the same so a if you want to go to from Milton to addenbrookes you will need to change at city centre,can any one confirm this
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 05:25:07 PM by TCD813 »
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Offline gc_bus

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2016, 05:44:01 PM »
Or from Madingley P&R you could always use the Whippet U Mon-Fri to Addenbookes

Offline wadey88

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2016, 06:22:52 PM »
I suppose Madingley road, newmarket road and if I remember right Trumpington park and ride sites all have services to addenbrookes so the only affected route would be Milton really as Babraham has to drive past addenbrookes. 

I suppose this has pros and cons. It would be interesting to get others points of views. I suppose it is easier to tender out the routes to different/more operators that way.

Offline Habbinman

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2016, 08:47:41 PM »
see in current notices and proceedings that alteration to these services takes place in November,rumour is that these services will change to  a self contained services and will no longer run from one park and ride to another for instance Milton park and ride will run to city centre and terminate forming a service back to Milton,all other park and ride services will be the same so a if you want to go to from Milton to addenbrookes you will need to change at city centre,can any one confirm this
This very much looks as if this is what is being planned. Unfortunately, with the gross level of congestion we experience here in Cambridge, it has now been recognised by Stagecoach (maybe at long last !!) that cross-city services no longer work, especially during rush hours or during periods of heavy traffic ! Cross-city services are experiencing very late running times due to the delays in trying to get through traffic jams on any side of the city. Because of the nature of their route, they are thus getting a double whammy every round trip....in effect, they are fighting the traffic in both directions !!

OK this will mean changing buses in the city centre, if you need to cross the city. BUT, if the shorter journeys show improvements in journey times & become very more reliable,  surely it can be more beneficial to a larger proportion of passengers ?? I would say a lot depends on how long a journey the majority of people need? Do the majority just need the city centre, & does that number grossly & significantly outweigh a very small minority who require cross-city (ie 90% c/centre to 10 % cross-city)??.

Offline Palatine One

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2016, 10:14:36 PM »
While on the topic of Park and Ride services, it was interesting to read on RouteOne's website that the new Enviro400's will be single door. Presumably the switch to out-and-back routes removes the need for the centre door, as all passengers will be boarding/alighting at the same place.

http://www.route-one.net/articles/Bus%20routes/Investment_despite_council

Offline wadey88

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2016, 07:28:44 AM »
Cross city:
Initially I thought this was a good idea however the longer I think about it then not so.
You say that cross city services are hit double whammy  surely if the they come on on traffic they go.out in traffic and still hit twice (although I suppose it could on effect one route rather than what would be 2. I.e newmarket road is blocked but Madingley road is okay).

Single door conversion:
When I was young I never understood this as I was always used to thanking the driver for the journey. However it works! While even if they are single route the grafton centre and city centre will still have a high level of on/off traffic so ideal for dual door.

Offline dwarfer1979

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2016, 09:22:00 AM »
Cross city:
Initially I thought this was a good idea however the longer I think about it then not so.
You say that cross city services are hit double whammy  surely if the they come on on traffic they go.out in traffic and still hit twice (although I suppose it could on effect one route rather than what would be 2. I.e newmarket road is blocked but Madingley road is okay).

Single door conversion:
When I was young I never understood this as I was always used to thanking the driver for the journey. However it works! While even if they are single route the grafton centre and city centre will still have a high level of on/off traffic so ideal for dual door.
The issue with Cross-City services is the transfer of delays from one side of the city to the other, on normal services that is less of an issue as other benefits can be accrued especially in places like Cambridge where major traffic objectives like the station & hospital aren't central and also with the central stops not being conducive to long layovers by joining two service together you may be able to offer a layover point at an outer point (like the Hospital) when the other end is looped so can't have a lot of layover.  On Park & Ride services you would normally expect the flow to be to the City Centre from the Car Park so you would not expect much, if any, cross-town passenger flow and the Park & Ride site offers the layover opportunities for all legs so whilst cross-city normal services retain a lot of merit even with the risk of delays being imported across the city there is less clear case on specialist flows like Park & Rides.

I'm not sure modern dual-door buses have the same speed advantage they used to, with the stairs needing to be over the front wheels to avoid losing precious lower-deck seats this means that after the first one or two boarding passengers you are getting alighting passengers blocking boarding passengers moving any further forward to clear the platform anyway, if there is any sort of volume of both at the same stop, so the advantage is less.  When the stairs were much further back in the bus you could board a lot of passengers before the alighting queue started blocking the boarding queue as you were half-way down the bus before you reached the stairs.  With wider entrance doors, which mean that with passenger co-operation you have a chance of boarding & alighting a bit at the same time, and the positioning of stairs the case for dual-doors is weaker than it has been previously.

Offline AE55DKN

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2016, 09:46:51 PM »
The issue with Cross-City services is the transfer of delays from one side of the city to the other, on normal services that is less of an issue as other benefits can be accrued especially in places like Cambridge where major traffic objectives like the station & hospital aren't central and also with the central stops not being conducive to long layovers by joining two service together you may be able to offer a layover point at an outer point (like the Hospital) when the other end is looped so can't have a lot of layover.  On Park & Ride services you would normally expect the flow to be to the City Centre from the Car Park so you would not expect much, if any, cross-town passenger flow and the Park & Ride site offers the layover opportunities for all legs so whilst cross-city normal services retain a lot of merit even with the risk of delays being imported across the city there is less clear case on specialist flows like Park & Rides.

I'm not sure modern dual-door buses have the same speed advantage they used to, with the stairs needing to be over the front wheels to avoid losing precious lower-deck seats this means that after the first one or two boarding passengers you are getting alighting passengers blocking boarding passengers moving any further forward to clear the platform anyway, if there is any sort of volume of both at the same stop, so the advantage is less.  When the stairs were much further back in the bus you could board a lot of passengers before the alighting queue started blocking the boarding queue as you were half-way down the bus before you reached the stairs.  With wider entrance doors, which mean that with passenger co-operation you have a chance of boarding & alighting a bit at the same time, and the positioning of stairs the case for dual-doors is weaker than it has been previously.

but with a service with very little stops, capacity is alot better than worrying about people getting on and off!

Offline barryb

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2016, 03:33:20 AM »
*mutters again about the southern guideway not being able to take double deckers, as it could massively speed up the Trumpington and Babraham routes*

Offline alanv

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2016, 05:20:44 PM »
*mutters again about the southern guideway not being able to take double deckers, as it could massively speed up the Trumpington and Babraham routes*

The current timetable shows a journey time of 11 minutes from Trumpington to St.Andrews St for PR2.
I traveled on this service recently in the middle of the day and it took about 10 minutes.
If one uses the timetables of the R and PR3 routes the implied time from Trumpington to Drummer St. is 15 minutes using the bus way.
The original consultants forecast a time of  4.1 minutes from Trumpington to the Railway Station and 11.5 minutes to the City Centre via the bus way.


I do not know how the revised services are to be numbered from the detail on Traveline,
 PR1 seems to be to Newmarket Road
PR2 to Madingley Road



Offline barryb

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2016, 06:59:47 PM »
My boss used to tell me that it would take him 50-60 mins to get from the Grafton Centre back to Babraham at rush hour.  Where would he have been getting delayed?

RM471

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Cambridge Park & Ride, congestion and delays
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2016, 08:24:37 PM »
Double doors and insisting on fast contact card payment (the readers used on Peterborough and Cambridge buses are too slow) really does speed things up. Anyone who travels in London will know this. The real problem in Cambridge, as in London, is increasing congestion. This causes a decline in bus use even if the unfortunate park and ride charges and increased fares were not enough. Introducing charges on cars in cities reduces congestion if they are high enough and enforced properly. If the money raised is promptly spent on improving and speeding up public transport many more people will use it. Not necessarily what what people will want to hear but the evidence shows it is true.

Offline Julia_Hayward

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride, congestion and delays
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2016, 09:31:38 AM »
Double doors and insisting on fast contact card payment (the readers used on Peterborough and Cambridge buses are too slow) really does speed things up.

And getting people to charge up their cards beforehand (eg. by direct debit) rather than on the bus itself...

Offline AE55DKN

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2016, 08:23:05 PM »
My boss used to tell me that it would take him 50-60 mins to get from the Grafton Centre back to Babraham at rush hour.  Where would he have been getting delayed?

that quick? when i used to do 13s, it used to nearly take 90 mins!

Offline wadey88

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2016, 08:37:30 PM »
I like that in London you can use contact less on your debit/credit card

Offline barryb

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2016, 03:13:01 PM »
I like that in London you can use contact less on your debit/credit card

This is surely the only sensible way to live life nowadays?  If someone else puts all the infrastructure in place for you, why not use it?

Offline David Goddard

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2016, 07:31:57 PM »
Sounds sensible to split- remember this has happened a few times before, such as in the 1990s when the Cowley Road - Clifton Road service was split.
So with five separate services now, does this mean there will be five separate colours for the routes?  Yellow and Pink probably the most suitable.

Offline barryb

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2016, 08:06:28 PM »
Are all the services one contract, or are there now also perhaps going to be more opportunities for another operator to pick up routes?

Offline TCD813

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2016, 08:36:58 AM »
Are all the services one contract, or are there now also perhaps going to be more opportunities for another operator to pick up routes?

I'm open to any Forum member correcting me but as far as I know, the blue, green and red P&R services are operated on a commercial basis with the operator paying a departure fee to the county council.
TCD813? The reg of a Southdown Motor Services, Northern Counties bodied, Leyland Titan PD3/4 FH39/30F (popularly dubbed 'Queen Mary') from the late 50s.
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Offline Palatine One

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2016, 10:06:59 AM »
I'm open to any Forum member correcting me but as far as I know, the blue, green and red P&R services are operated on a commercial basis with the operator paying a departure fee to the county council.

Correct. I assume originally the routes were contracts, and over time have been switched to commercial routes paying a departure fee, as you say.

Offline Steves

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2016, 10:52:34 AM »
I'm open to any Forum member correcting me but as far as I know, the blue, green and red P&R services are operated on a commercial basis with the operator paying a departure fee to the county council.
I think there must be a contract which sets out the access charges (rather than the subsidy) and perhaps provides exclusive access for Stagecoach to provide the park and ride services to the city.  I wonder if the contract specifies a minimum level of service?  Stagecoach takes the risk on the operation and so the services are commercial.

I assume there are also contracts which provides access for the other regular services - probably on a different basis.

Offline TCD813

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2016, 01:17:09 PM »
I think there must be a contract which sets out the access charges (rather than the subsidy) and perhaps provides exclusive access for Stagecoach to provide the park and ride services to the city.  I wonder if the contract specifies a minimum level of service?  Stagecoach takes the risk on the operation and so the services are commercial.

I assume there are also contracts which provides access for the other regular services - probably on a different basis.

There will be all manner of contacts in the strict legal sense of the word. In that sense, whenever goods or services are bought sold or exchanged a contract exists. In law, this might be written (ie what we usually regard as 'a contract') verbal or implied. So, when Suzy sells a printed timetable, an implied contract exists when timetable and cash is exchanged, even when not a word is spoken.

I think we can pretty be certain that written contracts are in place governing all operators' departure charges.

As for operator exclusivity, I'm unsure of the position. There are strict rules about FREND (Fair, reasonable, Equitable, Non Discriminatory) terms.

Anyone with 'insider' knowledge?
TCD813? The reg of a Southdown Motor Services, Northern Counties bodied, Leyland Titan PD3/4 FH39/30F (popularly dubbed 'Queen Mary') from the late 50s.
There's all 'manor' of stuff on my Twitter A/c.

Offline Julia_Hayward

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2016, 11:56:17 AM »
Just seen this, sent from Cambs CC to local councillors:

http://www.hisimp.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Stagecoach-20th-November-2016-changes-notification-chart-final.pdf

Biggest change apart from the split is that Madingley Road and Babraham Road lose the link to the Grafton Centre; Milton Road does the Grafton Centre on the way out only. The convoluted routes to serve the Grafton as well as the old centre presumably detract from the reliability...?


Offline chris johnson

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2016, 12:51:00 PM »
It's bit odd changing and splitting the park and rides with the red and the green and I'm guessing is there be new colours as well then to look out for too just wondering
this photo is a 53 reg Trident what I'm on and its 18058 yes it is Chris johnson

Offline TCD813

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2016, 01:03:22 PM »
It's bit odd changing and splitting the park and rides with the red and the green and I'm guessing is there be new colours as well then to look out for too just wondering

Yellow, orange and purple?
TCD813? The reg of a Southdown Motor Services, Northern Counties bodied, Leyland Titan PD3/4 FH39/30F (popularly dubbed 'Queen Mary') from the late 50s.
There's all 'manor' of stuff on my Twitter A/c.

Offline chris johnson

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2016, 01:35:53 PM »
so still got green blue and red and what three colours yellow orange and purple and what about the 2 spare buses still be gray TCD813 then i know what im looking for when im in cambridge
this photo is a 53 reg Trident what I'm on and its 18058 yes it is Chris johnson

Offline TCD813

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2016, 02:09:07 PM »
so still got green blue and red and what three colours yellow orange and purple and what about the 2 spare buses still be gray TCD813 then i know what im looking for when im in cambridge

How do passengers find the correct bus on other routes where they're in standard livery?  ;)
TCD813? The reg of a Southdown Motor Services, Northern Counties bodied, Leyland Titan PD3/4 FH39/30F (popularly dubbed 'Queen Mary') from the late 50s.
There's all 'manor' of stuff on my Twitter A/c.

Offline chris johnson

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2016, 02:14:08 PM »
lol like hope they notice the colour bus they gone on
this photo is a 53 reg Trident what I'm on and its 18058 yes it is Chris johnson

Offline TCD813

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2016, 02:26:33 PM »
lol like hope they notice the colour bus they gone on

I just had this brilliant idea! Why don't they just put some distinguishing mark on the front of each bus? Maybe a big number and the place it's going to?

Mind you, that might be a bit difficult for car drivers to understand, accustomed as they are to blindly following their prat-navs whatever the road signs say (e.g. No Entry except for buses).
TCD813? The reg of a Southdown Motor Services, Northern Counties bodied, Leyland Titan PD3/4 FH39/30F (popularly dubbed 'Queen Mary') from the late 50s.
There's all 'manor' of stuff on my Twitter A/c.

Offline chris johnson

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Re: Cambridge Park & Ride
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2016, 02:39:37 PM »
true and i seen the new timetables on traveline south east and anglia in cambridge and looks like got the same timetables for it and different routes too
this photo is a 53 reg Trident what I'm on and its 18058 yes it is Chris johnson